Military PTSD, Survivor's Guilt & How It's Not Working - Ed Owens - Veteran, former 1st Sergeant

I got a call from the base later that day I'm on my way in and I would spend 18 or so months on active duty some of that a different place around the United States But then I did two more tours to the Middle East after 9-11. So that was tours two and three Wow, okay. Yep came back went back to my civilian life still a police officer Very, you know closely connected to other things my dexter neighbor was you know one of my best friends at the time He was a sheriff's deputy He would be killed in the line of duty and that would be you know another place. I would use this what we do That would be a significant loss.

I would deal with later was the death of Brad I made the decision to leave the university go to the sheriff's office Works my way up at the sheriff's office to a detective and then I was working intelligence criminal intelligence Threat groups that type of thing for the last five years or approximately of my law enforcement career Yeah, okay for those of you that don't know our work We one of the actions in our work is called the loss history graph and basically you graph from the very dawn of your first conscious memory You know generally that's three to five years old for most of us But we just need to start point on when we start you know tracking stuff And then until present day and we ask you basically to list all of the significant emotional painful events that you have had in your life traumatic Loss grief like the things that stick out to you is deeply hurtful for you, you know Looking at it through that lens right at this point in your career, right?

How many losses have you had do you think already just from your service alone not even your childhood But just how many losses do you think you've already had from kind of I think midway through your career? Would that be accurate? Yeah, we're at the story. Yeah, and I don't know if I could put a number on that Sure, I don't know.

It was a few dozen. Okay, so so we're at let's say like again, you know Sorry to put you on the spot. Well, let's say we're at 24 tragic things that you would qualify as painful events from your life From your service alone right absolutely right Joe just from military service. Yeah, yeah And I would throw law enforcement in there too There was some of that too like Brad and some other folks yep At least probably 12 to 15 yep significant relationships either due to death suicide or Other types of right just losing track of these people right just my military career probably another half a dozen or so significant losses around my law enforcement career Yeah, so so the point is the pot your pot your emotional storage tank is already full maxed out maxed out right and And in in the in the earlier episode we did did together You know we talked a little bit you talked a little bit about compartmentalization and that was kind of that's the training that you would have in the military or in law enforcement And we covered it totally makes sense right it's a skill we need right?

I mean, I know when I'm on a military base is doing this training right? It's like mission readiness readiness is like a term. I've heard quite a bit right absolutely It's like hey everything's around mission readiness and so I get we have to compartmentalize it a lot of times in our career But we also talk about That's kind of where we're the training and the skills and the tools for service people stops right? It's like compartmentalization compartmentalization to get the mission accomplished and that's kind of where we stop with this stuff And one more thing that's how we're taught to navigate those things But in the military you're also taught a couple of things like around a warrior's code and that warrior's code Yes, emphasizes the mission, but it also emphasizes like certain values that we have we place on a pedestal Okay, can you give me some of those sure you don't leave a brother behind whether it's the brother to your left or the sister You're right when you're serving right and it's about those relationships and you know, you just don't leave someone behind You're going to have their back.

You're going to keep them safe because they're keeping you safe It's like super critical for us as service members military members That relationship we have with each other As brothers and sisters and arms. Yep, right and a warrior code is also about you know You put your what you value behind you you are you know the wall Right you are what stands and keeps what you love behind you safe. I mean there's some things in that code Yep That we just internalize like they become part of our training and it reinforces you know why compartmentalization is needed in Order to succeed and do the mission and if you're not able to do and show up the way you're supposed to You're letting your brother and your sister down. You're letting your country down You're letting your unit down the mission down the mission might fail and then there's all the ramplications of that So there's a warrior code you live by that you agree and you adhere to and that is also reinforced way But you know core values that we believe right and I think this is really important because like in the air in all the branches Have different ones, but they're all kind of the same thing.

It's around mission It's around integrity for the Air Force. It was integrity first service before self and excellence and all we do Those core values are important to the conversation we're going to have today It's important for the audience to realize that those are things that we hold as sacred Right our warrior code our war how we show up as warriors our core values and then our training reinforces All of those things which compartmentalization is a huge component Thank you for that. That's helpful for me as a civilian for sure You know and I appreciate because I think the audience is gonna you know the foundation is set We can kind of go where you want to go because this is your world But one thing that that I just kind of want to touch on a little bit is what we often see in our work is Not so much the the 22 year old infantry guy, you know Who has just got out of out of basic or out of his fur and has an MOS and kind of knows what he's doing right like that person Is is trained to be a soldier in a fighter and he's not looking at Emotional recovery But we get the folks right the service men and women who maybe are transitioning out or who maybe have been out for a year or two Right and we're trying to figure out how to operate in this world right and and we have 15 20 25 35 significant emotional losses in our life and we're not necessarily these folks aren't necessarily looking at it like that But that is what is going on in turn, right and that's usually the opportunity that I we get to Engage and help people Military service members and not only military service members the families right right and and and all of the dependents are around That member the everyone in that group is grieving something or another or a lot or a little but but make you know And I know you but an audience just to understand there's there's so many different pieces of hurt emotional pain trauma grief loss in in this went and so that's really when we find that we can engage with folks and start working with them is when we're Transitioning out, you know, we talked to a really cool Non-profit the other day whose whole mission is is helping military service men and women and you know, and we were just discussing grief the way we define grief is conflicting feelings caused by the end of or change in a familiar pattern of behavior a cause You know a change in or the end of something that is familiar with military air force specifically Right, how many times are you guys moving bases right how many times are the kids moving and and the husband or the wife moving the dependence moving right How many times are we are we?

How familiar are we with our old unit and then you roll out or you retire and then all of a sudden We're never going to see these guys again or we say we will but probably we're not or we're going to meet up all the time And we don't you guys share the most kind of sacred like like all those core values that you were talking about right you Like those are so instilled in you and then and then you have to move away or you don't you know all of a sudden You're out of the team right right right massive grief there. Oh, absolutely, but no one identifies it is that no of course That yeah, no, they don't yeah So anyway, if you don't want if you want to tell us a little bit about your experience with anything I just said there we'd appreciate it. No absolutely And I think it's important to realize that when people go into the military for whatever drives them to the military Which by the way a lot of the time is pain and sadness and grief exactly from childhood right?

I want to get away from home. I want to get out of here, you know for whatever reason right they go and do that You know for me that was a piece of my story too. Okay, so my grandmother who helped raise me was fighting cancer Round after round after round and it was so hard for me to see it's not that you want to be there for her I love my grandmother very much But I couldn't stand being in that environment. It was so painful.

So my primary reason for serving was I wanted to follow my family's legacy The secondary reason was I couldn't see that pain. I got home as much as I could But you're what your right is like they're going into the service for other reasons sometimes is to get away from a life That hasn't been what they hoped and dreamed to be and they want to create a life for themselves Where they feel connected they feel like they're part of something they feel like they belong and you do get that Don't get me wrong. You get that in the military Well, and from the outside looking in that's one of the beautiful parts of the military is that you do get that right and Then the thing that we want to help people with is then when that is taken away at the end of your career that team and and all of that that The things that helped you know a service member build that community that family, you know Because again, right we know in 2023 one of the biggest things we are lacking is community is meaningful Groups of people where we truly depend on each other and rely on each other and you know all those kind of things And there's not a lot of places.

I don't think like how you how you get that still is the military And so when that's taken away we that is a massive grief event it is But it's that's not identified But let's go back if you know mine before that right like like you're saying everyone gets into the military for different reasons Yep, you know, I just know from experience working with veterans There is usually like that lost history graph We you know we broke down a little bit of your lost history graph just when you were in the service Mm-hmm a lot of kids before they get to boot camp they already have the 12 15 20 30 losses on their lost history graph absolutely before they even start Service and most of them probably don't even realize That their losses they were just so hard they went through in their life And they carry that into the military and I think that's an important piece for people who are watching this You know the military active duty guard reserve but prime, you know really heavily in the active duty We've had this ever rising suicide rate for a long time and You know it is it's Crisis for lack of a better term it affects mission unit readiness it affects mission readiness It affects everyone who's currently serving as well like the suicide rate is dramatic and it's due in part for what they bring already in their rucksack of emotional pain they're carrying Into their service and then the events of their service Further adds to it and if your best solution is be strong soldier on Tough up, you know do what you got to do Barrier compartmentalize it there.

There it is. I was about to say it which is all that that's what it equals Which for time and places needed to serve your role, you know for sure All the intellectual things are gonna like you're gonna hear like you know whether it's moving to a new base Or you didn't get promoted or your friends are going somewhere else each of these things Is a loss and the reality of it is we don't we're not taught to look at it that way But we miss our friends that PCS and move on we miss our friends that are retiring or there's their You know, Lisments up and they're getting out or I'm going someplace new. I miss my units Or I really wanted to get promoted to the cycle and I didn't get I didn't make the grade Right so all types of things each of these things we don't look at them as a loss We might if we're honest say that that was painful.

I didn't like that You know, but I got to figure out I keep going You know we work with people that are kind of on I don't know again I forgive me for the terms. I'm gonna get the terms wrong But you know you have you have kind of the part of the military That's kind of the support wing and they're on the bases right and then you have the tip of the spear and you have like all the way to the Tier one operator guys yep, and you know, I think it's important for us to just discuss in this conversation That every one of them has a bunch of grief absolutely from their past and it could be absolute Trauma pain grief loss from their service from their combat deployments from their Any of that kind of stuff for sure and then it can also be that they were they were deployed and their mom died or Or they or their dad got diagnosed with Alzheimer's and by the time they got back Their dad didn't even know them right and so I Think there there needs to be a little bit of a distinction between you know our what what our lane is and we try and stay in our lane we're not we're not there for Shell shock and and and extreme combat stress-related PTSD and like those kind of things we don't do But what I do know is we help and have helped Navy seals and special forces folks and Drone operators and also the you know the person that that worked at Taco Bell on the forward operating or not the forward You know on the big base in Afghanistan You know and the and the person that that helped The engineer that helped with the B2 bombers right and and all the support team so Very service team.

Yeah, the the I think the takeaway we want especially for veterans watching this or or active to your whoever is We're all grievous we all have unresolved grief from the past and that that as chock full in the military as well Right and if we can look at each other through that lens and and provide tools for folks in that world We will make a dent in all of these things we're struggling with as a society that are sometimes very very amplified Unfortunately, you know with one of the best incredible segments of our population in this country which which our service members Um, and so we passionately want to do that you know, so in terms of like Stating the problem which is there's a bunch of grief out there that none of us know is grief Right, we all kind of have this idea that grief is like a little small window after someone dies And time will eventually heal it and that's it That's what grief is and that is absolutely not grief grief as what you said It's the rucksack of a bunch of unresolved stuff from our childhood Whatever we endure or the people again That we lose through death through combat related stuff just through you know, getting moved to another team or or you know Switching branches or you know all those kind of things the losses pile up We none of us know how to Diagnose that and if we misdiagnose it then we're gonna miss treat it If we can't call any of it grief Then we don't know how to help people with that Absolutely, and there's a whole lot of ways we can take this conversation, but I want to piggyback on while you're in the military You know, you brought up like your family There's a family emergency and one part I forgot to mention was I was a first sergeant my last combat tour was like Kirkland Iraq and oh six um, and I was a first sergeant over there and whether before I went there or being State side being a first shirt Delivering those red cross notifications to the service members Right This is happening with your mom.

This is happening with your your wife or your children or those types of things whether it's a death or a Sudden illness or Hospitalization or whatever those things are Military service doesn't stop the same things anyone else experiences And that adds to it on top of the strain it puts on relationships You know in romantic relationships partnerships marriages, you know the the The being a dad or a mom who's also not there for their with their kids because they have to deploy You know, there's so many of these things that play in and you have all of your civilian family Right and all of that is part of your experience too It's so I'm never surprised when people are completely feeling overwhelmed With a combination of everything in a negatively cumulative way Right because I remember delivering those met road cross notifications or being with You know a soldier and airman, you know a marine and having to sit there and be with them because This is going on whether it's military related or it was civilian related While they're in service all that stuff adds up, you know There's I love my military service.

I'm proud of it. I love my brothers and sisters and arms I love what we do to keep this nation safe. It's an honorable profession Right high light of my life. Yep.

We just don't do a good enough job Identifying that those relationship issues in our marriage is grief We don't understand that changing bases can be a painful experience that having to give up the family pet because the base I'm going to I can't take it You know, there's things going on in my family and it is It is a significant change or an end and a family of power behavior And that is adding to my experience Right and that rucksack of pain Or pressure cooker or however you want to phrase it that resonates with you I'm not surprised that the suicide rates were seeing the military has been aware of and knows That military life coupled with Have still having a civilian life families and everything else right. It's hard Like that's not a surprise and we've known for a long time throughout history That people who serve you know have different terms for it Right It you know PTSD survivors go we could talk about any of these terms we want You know PTSD came out of Vietnam survivors guilt some more of a current thing and that's something I think we do need to talk about It's funny you it's funny you mentioned that because that I don't mind going there right now So I'd love for you because I the reason is is I Again, it's a community we want to serve right and you have a lot more But I have quite a few friends that are serving or have served and yeah, it's again People I respect very much my dad was a combat veteran for Vietnam and you know I washed podcasts and there's some really good ones out there Sean Ryan podcast, you know For for you you guys in the military you probably are Or aware of that one I watched that one just so I can see what what folks are going through just for for my profession to be able to help have some insight and That term really bothers me survivors.

Yeah, of course it does well there's me too. Yeah, and and and I I don't like overall generally in society how we like to really have these These intellectual terms and these terms that are like new but hard to define and if I said well, you know another one again Not the same, but in the suicide people who are are grieving the loss of a suicide that I have this term Suicide survivors right and and and and then again Survivors guilt and if we let's really just stop and look at some of these terms, right? That's why I brought it up because that one's a big one And it adds to why some other people in the service Right get to that point where they feel like they have no other choice Yes, right? Yes, and I'm not gonna you know I'm not gonna sit there and be emotionally honest about these things.

I'm gonna let that keep keep building up But getting back to this term right guilt by definition well Let's before you go there and I'm I appreciate you're gonna go there But let's let's take one step back and let's look at the term of survivors guilt Okay, so Before we go where you're going Survivors guilt Simply means That we are heartbroken and we are grieving the loss of a teammate of ours right So we are grieving the death of someone we loved Someone that we admired maybe someone that saved us back in the day right maybe we're we're heartbroken that we couldn't help them or we couldn't get to them or you know You know more than me all of the different circumstances where we can feel Huge amounts of pain because a friend of ours died By definition that is grief Absolutely, we don't have to put kind of intellectual vague terms around this that only complicate things When really if we knew what to do with grief we'd be on the right path So I just wanted to sit there and first go ahead and and take it away now that we've kind of defined Survivors guilt which again is just It's just an inaccurate term for what the emotional experience that's occurring right then It is the core we like to keep things simple the over the more you over complicate things You know the more that you try and pathologize things and make it really high level intellectual and all of sudden It's a disorder and this and that like we we make things too complex When they when they're simple emotional things that have happened since the beginning of time And the good news is is like when you help people treat things that are Really normal natural things like grief like emotional pain that we're all gonna go through Then we can help people right?

So that's why we're so resistant with this term survival survivor's guilt You know, we're like oh you mean grief exactly you mean your heart's broken over that brother that you lost in this really painful way But you know and again, I don't want to minimize the cause of the death or the way that person died right For for for the person that has tremendous energy But let's say you were you served with them for 20 years We're grieving this 20-year-long relationship We're heartbroken over all of this stuff stuff absolutely Only wants to help focus on the tragic way that it ended and again the trauma and the stress around how it ended Keeps drawing us there, but the the fact of the matter is We got 20 years that that we need to work on and say goodbye to with that person in the pain Absolutely and getting back to this term they feel this way or they're told this is how they're feeling And this is what's going on for them They already feel a lot of regrets how they wish things were better or different like I didn't see this like it Let's just say the quiz suicide is such a huge topic whether it's in the military Currents community or in the veteran community at large who are no longer serving right The brothers sisters the comrades and arms like Like we have that in remember we talked about right this you don't let Leave a comment behind you don't let them down You know you got there back you got they got yours and when something happens and either they you know die in an accident whether it's a training accident or it's in a combat operation or they die by suicide Because we have this belief was like well, why couldn't I have done this or why couldn't I have done this and I'm still alive now I feel bad like what could I have done About this right what could I have done better or different and That's the the churning massive emotions that are going on yeah And then when someone says oh you have survivors guilt well time out right Labels can become our identities Right and guilt by definition is an intent to harm another person say that again guilt by definition is an intent to harm another person We're all raised right to what's good what's right what's wrong what's good what's bad You know and people who are the people are guilty of hurting that person and so that term has power That label has power And if I'm internalizing oh my god.

Yeah, I am guilty of that right then I deserve to feel like shit I deserve to internalize and beat myself up over and over again. I deserve to you know Go down a rabbit hole of alcohol or drugs or any of these other things because I deserve the pain that I'm experiencing Right because someone has told me or I've come to believe You know, I have survivors guilt Yep, and I internalize that term yep and like you said the reason that guilt is such a trapping word and please don't use that word with the people you love in your friends do not in our opinion Survivors guilt should be completely thrown away and in the veteran community Please don't pass that along to a friend that's going to use that to vlog himself and trap himself For years and years and years moving forward when guilt is not an accurate term for what happened You know, we talk a lot about and by the way Grieber's just in the grief world do this too.

Let's yeah, let's say that I Visited my mom in the hospital every day for three months as she battled cancer right and then what happens the one day that I don't get to the hospital Because I had to pick up the kids because my wife couldn't My mom dies Right and then everyone is gonna say you shouldn't feel guilty So of course I'm gonna take that word guilt In turn wise that label right and the way I learned it way back in the day was guilty as a deliberate intention of harming someone Okay, so even though that's not accurate because I would have given anything to be there that day of course she died So it's not an accurate term, but I will use that to trap myself for the for the end of time right And that's what our veterans are doing when we use survivors guilt Simply put we are heartbroken and we're grieving the loss of a brother or a sister or whatever the loss is That's what we can work from because that's accurate and and guilt right The word we use instead of guilt and this is such a gift.

So please hear us If you just put guilt away and you just used do you wish that day would have happened different? Do you wish you could have just done something different or they would have done something differently? Right if you can just give them that lifeline versus the word guilt It's gonna set you free if this is you that's grieving this loss or it's gonna set a friend of yours free To just basically wish or hope or dream that that could have happened differently Now we're gonna we're gonna get to the things we can do to help them complete that emotion So we're not done with just saying we wish it would have happened differently But at least it gives someone a true path of what the reality is versus them being guilty of Crime they didn't commit right and we could spend the next three hours talking about labels and all those other things You know like and we don't want to do that we want to go on to some other topics But there's a lot of terms like PTSD Right which came out of Vietnam You know we're always trying to find a way to intellectually articulate and explain and again well-meaning people wanting to help these communities That are suffering intense feelings Around something that has happened right and so we try to explain what's going on But we do so in a way that we create these labels and if I'm internally somehow I have a disorder Yep, right there's something wrong with me right there's something wrong with me.

I must be broken I'm not strong enough You know all of these things start playing like again You have to be strong for yourself another like this is what society teaches us not true But especially like with a warriors code like these things are powerfully reinforced and now you're telling me oh I have a disorder. Why do you think so many people in the military? Right don't want to seek out help even though there's everything in the world and posters and flyers and commanders and first sergeants talk about it at commander's call I mean it's such a huge issue But why don't you think people come forward and admit I'm hurting Right now I need help because They don't want to be viewed as not strong enough or they can't do it Where they're going to let their brothers and sisters down or they're not going to they're going to affect the mission All these types of things and heaven forget I don't want like oh my god I have a disorder.

I'm broken. I'm worthless. I'm failing. I'm letting them down.

Oh my god Now I'm bouncing against these incredibly powerful belief systems. No wonder people get to a point right where You know the alcohol's not working anymore. Yeah, right You know, I served with a guy. We both had a calm combat experiences together He came back and he just he dove into exercise running and This guy did marathons several of them a year Now I know what he went through.

I was there too right Our experiences of the shared experience were different from our different perspectives But I know why he ran And I've talked to him several times trying to have conversations with him But he's still is trying to run away from the pain Right that he doesn't want to to pause turn around and face and he's a warrior Right he is a an amazing warrior and served with him for 16 years and It breaks my heart When I see people Internalize these labels that have been created for well-meaning people by well-meaning people trying to help and they're not helpful or You know the message of well you shouldn't feel bad You know if you know had known about this of course you would have done that or you shouldn't feel bad if you'd have been there in that moment Of course you would have done something to help them I mean and and let me just stop there right because we do try and do that stuff to help each other out But the problem is is although that's intellectually accurate right it's emotionally unhelpful right So if you know if you tell someone well you I know you you would have done something different if you could right Yeah, we all know that that's intellectually true But it's but we still haven't dealt with saying goodbye to a friend that that right like real real quick story And again not a parallel to the military But but part of this conversation is whether you're civilian or you're in the military We all have massive amounts of grief from our past and if we could just help each other look at that stuff and have enough space to not criticize or judge or compare losses We'd be a lot farther ahead right, but it's like I had a buddy that that died in a drunk driving accident And I was in college with him right for a couple of years and so you know I'm not in the military, but I'm still a guy in college So of course, I'm not going to tell him how I feel about him I'm not going to tell him how much I appreciate our friendship I'm not going to tell him that I was homesick and he got me connected with a group of friends and I'm so thankful for that So when I get a call that he rolled his truck and I'm never going to see him again because he died Right I'm left with this bag of you know years of of a friendship That I thought I would have the rest of my life And and all of that stuff how do I right so the end of his life is tragic and and traumatic and all of that But I still have the bag of all these Unmet hopes dreams and expectations Be in our friendship all the things I wish could would have been different better or more right and and and that's where the work needs to be done Right Not I got survivors guilt I should have been the guy that died or I should have been the one in the driving or I should have been in that seat and not that seat Like those things are that's just that's just us spinning on a record player It is and it doesn't have a good outcome Yeah, right and You know whether it's you know you at when at when your friend died me at times in my life when I was spinning like a record out of control Or other people who are trying to navigate whatever it is going on And there's also this thing like I have to keep you silent about it like that's part of the thing like internalizing all of that Trying to do everything they can and there's a great quote from years ago from the Veterans Administration I don't choose suicide because I want to hurt anyone I choose suicide because they don't know what to do with the pain and And not minimize when you're just saying or shifting away from that But that's also part of it right sure those things like if that is still churning and everything else I'm experiencing from my family from my life before the military my life in the military I'm out of the military and I'm still experiencing losses leaving the military was devastating for me And there's a high percentage of people that Post military service really really have a hard life Because they don't know how to deal with it, you know, they don't want to talk about it They're going to keep it silent Because there's you know, we haven't got it like there's a shame out.

We're going to some of the things that you do There's a you know, and internalize I don't want people to think less of me When I share stories of stuff that happened and so you're not going to talk about What happened to Steve and you're not going to want to go down that road and open those doors For a lot of reasons and then we put a label on top of it which isn't helpful. Yeah, right? My favorite one just if we were to call it something I don't almost say We know it's emotional pain. We know it's these people are grieving intensely Yeah, right But way back in the Civil War we called it a soldier's heart And I'll and at one point we recognize that their heart hurts Because of their service and well, I mean, I think I'm not familiar with that term, but I think honestly that's the the most Accurate term that we have and look we're in 2023 and all we've done is make everything overly complex And overly intellectual and almost like something that we're dealing with that's insurmountable.

Yeah, right? And I think the takeaway in our mission is to to remind people that You're not broken. There's nothing wrong with you. Absolutely grief is normal and natural And everyone that's ever walked the planet has carried grief and there are simple tools to help you help yourself Right But but we just need to know them Absolutely, and we're so busy making stuff over over complicated and and you know, and I agree I think most people it's a well-entred tension people that want to create like new terms There's also people that just want to write a book You know, and there's academics that just really want to make a name for themselves Some university and the problem is is you know, they have a 500 page book That's highly complex and complicated and then society picks up the term that they created And it's like none of us are equipped just in regular people To decipher this 500 page book to truly understand even what they're talking about or how I can get to the other side of it Right and so much of what we deal with Is this grief?

It's just heartbreak. It's just heartbreak It is you know, it's just we wish we would have given anything for that day to happen differently And it didn't and we got to know how to unpack that and running is not going to fix it and cross fits not going to fix it And energy drinks aren't going to fix it and alcohol is not going to fix it And video games aren't going to fix it and you know having a bunch of sexual partners isn't going to fix it Right, we have to go and actually look at how to process and how to actually get Pressure out of the steam kettle that is our lives after a bunch of this stuff Yep, right and the thing that I think is frustrating for me and you is it's not complex. It's hard It is it's hard, but when you get to the other side of it We know how to process it right and so I love what you're talking about like having those right tools You know for folks who are watching this who have like a military background or a law enforcement background You know think about it this way.

It's We're used to training Right you need a skill we train for those skills and our military and our law enforcement any of those professions that do that service Right, they are amazing We need to know how to do this skill we train for it right and we train so much we are experts in it Right and we will train for everything But we don't train for our emotional well-being And we just don't do it and when I tell veterans when I'm talking to them and so and we've had an opportunity to do a lot of work With the military community just since I've been with the institute, right? And I know there's a long history over 45 years of working with the military branches You know like your dad did a lot of work you've done a lot of work. I've done have been blessed to do a lot of work um, I tell military families and military members You know, this isn't therapy Right you're not broken you don't need to be fixed we touched on a little bit earlier.

This is us you know Identifying the mission training the mission Doing the mission right and then debriefing the mission is a good way to look at what we do about going through the method Right in the simple terms that you're gonna understand you know, you're not Broken what you need is if you know, you can do battlefield self-aid buddy care for a buddy That's it. You know, you can carry out whatever operation run this piece of equipment operate that machinery whatever it is But we don't teach Right this what are these emotional skills the emotional tools I need and it's training It's training and experience that they're gonna work Right and we just got a change that mindset right it's not a mental health issue in my opinion. It's an emotional health issue The emotional pain we have emotional pain we carry those conflicting feelings right that's those are an emotional issue It's not a mental health issue my brain is not broken right my brain doesn't need to be fixed My heart is what I need to figure out how to get to and and if I've never been trained on how to do it And I've never been educated on how to do it How am I supposed to do it no wonder people feel helpless no wonder feel people feel hopeless that they don't have another choice Except for to try and compartmentalize it try and put it in Pandora's box Well, we all know at sooner or later Pandora's box breaks Right or we get overwhelmed and we everything we've ever been taught doesn't work compartmental and Mentalizing it isn't working right.

I sure don't want to appear weak Right and so I'm not gonna talk about it again Are we really that surprised That we have such a mental health with on a emotional health issue That they label mental health and we keep doubling and tripling and quadrupling down on the exact same stuff that hasn't worked For 40 years and we're gonna keep doubling and tripling and quadrupling down on it And yet the rates are still going up. Yeah, the problems our veterans are having one added nine homeless on the street is a veteran Why is that yeah? Thank you? Um, I love your insight in this stuff to me to me the the one of the big pieces of this it is I'm gonna play Amper of the world for a second right if we could just implement this work into like because again You've done this and I've done this.

I've had a room full of guys in fatigues do this work. Mm-hmm beautifully Deep emotional work telling the truth about what they've been through Sharing with another guy in fatigues or a gallon fatigues what they've been through and it only makes a stronger group It only makes a more cohesive group. We actually have had you know some very you know high-level Forces guy elite and elite guys have that that have come through this and they said cool I can't believe how quickly you can have a group come together. Oh, that's what he was like stuck on you know Was how quickly you can gel 12 complete strangers and I said you know how that happened We made it safe for each other to tell the truth about ourselves Yeah, and we built trust because we all showed each other some emotional pain from our past and we didn't compare it We didn't analyze it we didn't judge it and then because what happens is like I judge me By looking at your outsides.

So I'm hurting emotionally inside, but you look very stoic and tough outside So now I assume Ed doesn't have any pain or grief, right? So now I think something's wrong with me. So now I want to hide it even more Now the truth is if I showed you my lost history graph that we covered earlier if I just showed you five or six of my losses And then you showed me five or six of what your loss is then I would understand that Ed before that I thought was this larger than life You know special forces guide that was just you know Could feel no emotions and any pain or sad now I know that like nothing's wrong with me because I see he's got stuff too And and so anyway if I was emperor the world I would I would make leadership Do work and show their lost history graphs. I would have you know people be able to do that.

So look You want it all right you want to have the capability and the courage and the honor to be on the battlefield and be the most lethal thing ever to To defend our country and that is awesome, right? But then you also want to have the capability you know to be there for your children and to your wife to be able to communicate emotionally there and to be able to process and and and and and vent that steam that was built up on the battlefield, right? Like you want you want that all that's a complete guy That's a complete gal like coming from the service, right? And it's like I just wish leadership Would do that too and again not just leadership at the very top I mean, you know like first sergeants and you know Again, I don't know all the no-one culture But if you could see all these guys that you just thought were larger than life that eat glass that that you know You know, that's not how they are at night When they when they got to take pills to get through or they got a drink right or they're contemplating suicide So if we could just all see that we're all at times hurting emotionally and sharing that it's okay to use tools like you said nothing's wrong with it That's a normal part of life, but we don't do that.

We judge each other's outsides Yep, right and then we compare our insides with someone someone else's outside. So anyway, um Yeah, this is a great conversation, you know, it is and we could totally talk about a bunch of things. Yeah, for a long You know for anyone who's watching this, you know, I'm also very aware that a lot of people who are gonna watch this video Are the dependents? Yes, are the spouses?

You know, and that's the thing like a lot of people don't talk about very much But our dependents serve right alongside those military members, you know and in my mind Right, especially when I was a first sergeant. I love being you know my job was people every one is my business And that included the dependents and you know, I always recognize like that spouse and those kids serve Right alongside the person happens to put the uniform on yep, right? They sign up and they go on the same journey now they may not get on the plane or the ship and go down range and do an operation but they're at home And I'm very familiar that a big chunk of people who'll be watching this Right will be the dependents who will be looking for resources because they know Their husband their wife is having a hard time Right, and I want you all to hear me loud and clear, you know, I'm glad you are watching this And you can play a role in helping your husband your wife, right and helping your family And thank you because all of you are serving just as much as they are And that's a piece of it too and the DOD didn't even start tracking The impact on families until the 2019 report and every day and a half a family member a dependent whether it's a spouse or a child Right is is taking their life You know and that's a heartbreaking cost too And I mentioned this because I know it's the dependents that go seeking Things that are going to help their loved one Right and help their family and we can do both right we can help Them we can we can help the spouse we can help the military member We can help with the children and because they're serving too right and That's part of this and I want to make sure we touch on that because I know that's a big chunk of our audience And I want you to know first thank you Yes, absolutely And thank you for even taking the time To see if this is a resource that can help you with your them or your kids.

I mean, that's huge And you're totally right the the the perfect outcome is that everyone in the family has access to access to these tools Because everyone has grief in the family And I want to I just I just finished this great book by this guy named John Lovell And it's called the warrior poet way and you know for dads out there I highly recommend it You know, I want it to be required reading for my for my boys But he says it's really funny line in it in it and it's basically You know, we all want to train for you know 10 or 15 ninjas attacking our house so we can defend our wife and kids from from the ninjas But the reality is and I'm now I'm paraphrasing you know, but the reality is You're going to probably utilize knowing how to emotionally communicate with your wife and your kids And you know and be able to connect with them on the heart level a lot more than you're going to have to defend Uh from 15 ninjas in your home, right?

So we we have to know how to do both As as the dads right yep, and then and mom right mom's carrying a bunch of grief and she has to know how to unpack that Yep, and the kids kids are carrying a lot of grief and we got to know how to role model how to unpack that show them how to do it But also know how to do it ourselves because they're going to learn from us right and that's a perfect outcome And we do have families like that specifically, you know for this talk In the military we have husbands and wives that have both been through it Yeah, they're role modeling this for the kids We know how to number one identify that this is a grief event a huge problem is where we're we're un You know, we're not we're having all of this loss accumulate and we don't even know it's loss. We're not classifying that way Right, so number one you're going to get a lot of Amazing knowledge about how to understand the things that are happening in military families that are lost so that we can address them Right and we can identify them and help the kids process this stuff.

Yep in a confidential way Yeah, that's not going to mess up their career Which these are all other factors too sure, you know, and it's Everybody could benefit from these things and you're spot on um, you know We have one specialist we both know, you know, Tara Her husband's in the in the service, you know, she works with military members, you know And she and me and a lot of other folks are like this ought to be on every single base And it's on some basis for the US military But this really needs to be embedded on every base It needs to be a set of tools and training and skills to help You know every member of our military family It was quite honestly and if you're happened to be a leader and you're watching this you have to be a commander and you're watching this Whether it's enlisted or you know an officer You know your job is to lead your men and women to take care of them so that you can lead them to accomplish the mission Right and if we're not taking care of our men and women We can't get the mission done and if we can't get the mission done.

We're not operationally ready our country suffers, you know The domino effect is huge and this is why you know, that's the leaders know this But folks we've got to start having a different conversation on this topic because what we're doing is not working We need to have different skill sets brought in and if you truly Want to take care of your men and women and their families And you want to accomplish the mission and you don't want to lose any of your men and women For whatever reason either they're ineffective and you have to pull them from the mission Right and now you're down Right, whatever the reasons are we have to change the conversation and we have to start sitting like this is my biggest asset Is my people and I know leaders know this I was a first sergeant. I advised my commanders Right, how do we take care of our people so we can get the mission done?

This is part of that Discussion and it has to be looked at it differently Yeah, it almost it almost seems like and we should probably wrap here because we're going long But it's it kind of seems like you were saying earlier To survive missions to and to find mission success They'll send you to any school you need to go to right but when mission success means not killing ourselves When the mission is getting out of the military and not killing ourselves We don't go to the schools for those there aren't there aren't those schools and I love therapy Okay, and I think therapy is a great piece of the puzzle But I will also say we train a lot of amazing therapists and once they trust you enough in day one or two of our trainings They'll they'll admit hey Cole you want to hear something crazy what I spent a half a semester on grief total in all of my school and Isn't that crazy and I go I'm sorry.

That's crazy. I'm glad you're here because our whole our whole deal is you do a bunch of stuff I'm not equipped to do But I'm going to teach you how to help people with grief and when grief is like from from my perspective 80% of what we're all dealing with as human beings You're going to use these tools every day in addition to your other tools and therapy, right? And so like we said earlier this is not therapy This is a completely different thing than therapy although this is utilized by a lot of therapists incredibly therapeutic outcomes You know, but what I find out there in the world is Most people are sent to therapists to deal with what we think and see as a lot of grief, right? And so give this a shot again It's not going to take away from the therapy work you're doing and there's a bunch of work you can do with a therapist great work But when it veers over to these type of things there's a bunch of grief in there So you got to find someone that really knows effectively how to deal with grief I'm not talking all not all grief work is created equal There's a lot of stuff out there in the grief space that's platitudes and kind of airy quotes And I'm going to help you along in this difficult season and like I'm talking I'm talking step by step Directed approach with a track record, right?

Where this stuff is evidence-based we didn't come up with it yesterday, right? We have helped hundreds of thousands of people with every type of loss you can imagine And I think our biggest challenge in this day and age is educating people on what grief is Because we all think grief is about three to six months after a death and that's it And certainly that is grief and there are way more that we covered today So I want to thank you for being here Any closing words from you sir? I do I got two closing shots You know This is about our emotional reaction to loss And until we start having conversations from that perspective We're never going to be able to address the issues and the that our veteran community faces our military Families face We're just not and my last thought on this whole thing and we didn't have time to cover it earlier I meant to I we're so in the moment.

I just like move right past it We started out talking about our core values What it means to be a warrior what it means to serve right and we internalize these are very powerful beliefs for us They're very powerful for me when I served One of the first ones that I mentioned it was integrity first Right we all know the value of integrity every branch You know emphasizes the importance to do the right thing for the right reason even one owns looking and to tell the truth But when we don't make it okay To talk about I'm really struggling I have to sit there and lie That I'm fine I'm good Right and now I am in conflict with my own human nature I'm in conflict with my core values. I'm in conflict with my code Right What a terrible place and box and emotional jail cell to put myself in It's very isolating and I'm in conflict with the things I believe I'm going to lay my life down for And I'm putting myself in conflict because it's not okay to have a conversation about it And what we're going to do is do a down day because we've had a few suicides on the base Which is devastating But we're going to have a down day and talk about it and we're going to double our efforts So I'm sorry.

I'm real passionate about this because I've I've lost brothers to suicide Because they didn't know what to do with the pain I Served with That decided to kill themselves Because that was the only option they thought they had because they didn't want to let someone else down They didn't want to appear weak and they didn't know what else to do because everything else had ran out because it wasn't okay To have a conversation And get honest Right now I'm struggling. I'm having a really hard time But that's not an okay conversation to have Because it will destroy your career. It will affect mission readiness You know and all the things that keep us not wanting to do that on top of You got to act like you're good. You got to act like you're strong Mission first.

Yeah, I want to get the mission done But now I'm breaking my other core values I mean again like these things add on top of it to that pressure cooker We got to change the conversation We got to make it okay to say I'm not okay today And there not be a consequence to that Yeah, and and we know from some organizations that we talked to and you know when we work with There's some greater organizations out there that are They're making inroads into being able to anonymously get yeah But again within the communities within the teams within the groups right that that has to happen too right because that's where the love is That's where the brotherhood is that's where that's where the true community is that you said all these young people Go into the military and a lot of them find it there And and you get that trust and that love and all these things that so many of us are searching for in that community And you know again, but then we we're missing one piece in there Which is also being able to tell the truth about what's going on so we can support each other Yeah So I just want to thank you for being here.

I love you very much. You know that Likewise brother and I just appreciate your passion for for helping this community And I know we did spend a lot of the time on the people serving I think we should have a separate podcast and we'll do it all about the dependence because you're right You guys are serving to the the wives the husbands the the children like you guys Carries such a huge burden and we want to help you too and we do but we want to do a whole podcast On separately on on all the stuff you guys are going through as well um So again, thank you for being here. Thank you for listening and make sure that you like and subscribe to this podcast share this podcast get it out there Let other people hear this concept right It can change their lives too So again, thank you for joining us and we will see you next time